alixtii: Peter and Susan, in extreme close-up. (incest)
[personal profile] alixtii

For [livejournal.com profile] booster17:

Five Characters Who Don't Have Sisters But Should So They Can Make Out with Them

1. Bastain Balthazar Bux. I'll admit it, I love The Neverending Story III. For many reasons, really, but male/female step-sibling relationships have always interested me, even way back before I recognized myself as being attracted to girls. It's the sudden intimacy of having a girl thrust into your life not just as a friend, but as a sister. To have a sister you made out with thrust into your life would be most intimate of all, of course. I also remember this dynamic as appearing in the movie Gordy. Of course, this meme is for a sister, not a stepsister, but remembering the third movie immediately suggested him to me for this. He's all so alone after the death of his mother, after all, and would be so much happier if he had a sister to make out with.

2. Joan Girardi. Joan of Arcadia provides all sorts of wonderful opportunities for incest family dynamics, with Joan having an excellent father and two brothers at least one of whom I think is excellent (guess which one!), but sadly no chance for sister/sister interaction.

3. Cassidy Casablancas. Cassidy so needs a sister so he can make out with her. It'd be all twisty and will-to-powery, and they could be evil together.

4. River Tam. The potential for Crazy Space Incest increase exponentially when you add another Tam to the mix!

5. Veronica Mars. Again with already 'cesty family dynamics being dialed up, in this case possibly logarthmically.  

For [livejournal.com profile] wisdomeagle:

Five Characters Who Don't Have Brothers But Should So They Can Make Out With Them

1. Dawn Summers. I'm mainly thinking of [livejournal.com profile] annakovsky's "Les Cousins Dangereux" here, where the S4 AtS mindwipe makes everyone believe Conner is Dawn's brother.

2. Amy Madison. Can't you see the two of them? Brother and sister, playing together, eating brownies together, having sex together, doing black magic together, turning people into rats together.

3. Kitty Pryde. She needed to be on one of these lists, and she had a father in canon, so I ended up putting her here.

4. The Stepford Cuckoos. I think the sort of het male fantasy the Cuckoos embody (which isn't exactly my het male fantasy, but I appreciate the purity of the archetype) is well served by them having a single brother they habitually make out with.

5. Jack Harkness. I wanted a boy on the list.

Five Characters Who Don't Have Excellent Fathers But Should So They Can Make Out With Them

This list was hard to come up with. Often the types of characters to which I'm attracted tend to have fathers in canon.

1. Inara Serra. Preferably dirtybadwrong squcky politics of heterosexuality sex here, but then I guess he wouldn't be an "Excellent Father."

The next four can be loving Keith/Veronica-type relationships (eta: but don't have to be, since a couple would also make great dirtybadwrong pairings too): 
2. Faith.
3. Kennedy
4. Malcolm Reynolds
5. Gwen Cooper



Wow, that's a lot of fictional incest. All of which is specifically dreamt up to hit my kinks like whoa.

Erm.

. . .

I'll be in my bunk.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 01:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
*blinks*

Faith?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 01:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Well. . .do you think Faith with a loving father would be Faith?

Maybe if he was long-lost or something, and just turned up.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, do we have any canon that Faith didn't/doesn't have a loving father?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Well, can you imagine a scenario in which she did?

If so, he must have died/left when she was quite young. . .

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
What makes you say that? I'm not sure I find it particularly implausible.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
I'd just wonder where he was when her mom was getting drunk and leaving her to fend for herself . . .

Plus, her reactions to the Mayor and her watchers are fairly classic "lack of strong father figure" behavior; I think that may even be stated by someone in canon.

Here's the thing -- parents have a major effect on how people grow up, and so I think that imagining nonexistent fathers into scenarios is fairly problematic, particularly a character like Faith, who we meet when she's so young, who's practically defined by her reaction to authority.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I can't deny that fitting a loving father into canon seamlessly would be a very difficult thing.

I think that one could exhibit the fairly classic "lack of strong father figure" behavior while still having a loving father back at home, especially if we assume that Faith would still have come to Sunnydale, deliberately divorcing herself from her father. Add in her psychological instability, which could have any of a million causes. Teenagers don't really need a reason to rebel, do they?

Just because Faith made bad decisions doesn't mean she came from a broken family (or was lower class). I think it could happen to any of us.

Of course AU-happy-Faith/Excellent Father might be a perfectly good pairing too.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Of course AU-happy-Faith/Excellent Father might be a perfectly good pairing too.

Well, at a certain point, something becomes AU enough to erase the essence of a character, which goes back to my original point that I don't think Faith with a happy childhood would BE Faith.

I don't recall that I actually made any comments about Faith's social class; anybody can have an absent/abusive/unsupportive father. Though Faith certainly projects an urban/working class image, which seems to be supported by the way she relates to Buffy and the mayor. It could be, of course, as put on as Spike's persona, and I've even tried to work with the idea of Faith as a slumming rich girl, but I found it didn't really work for me with the character.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 03:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, at a certain point, something becomes AU enough to erase the essence of a character, which goes back to my original point that I don't think Faith with a happy childhood would BE Faith.

And I'm saying there that, IF one considers you to be correct, then then the not-Faith/her father might be an interesting pairing. I don't think you're right, but I don't think your being right would invalidate her placement on the list. Does that make sense?


I made the class comment parenthetical because you didn;t bring it up although I do think the two are parallel--that Faith could be doing the equivalent of "slumming it" in terms of her home life.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 03:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Although, it occurs to me, do we have anyone's word but Faith's that her mom was getting drunk? It seems perfectly in character to me for Faith to have made up that story whole cloth when her mother is a perfectly responsible pillar of the community.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 01:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
BTW, I totally see you on Inara.

I might even go with father/daughter incest being an accepted part of the Companion tradition.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] booster17.livejournal.com
Faith-Mayor?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 08:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] booster17.livejournal.com
I was merely wondering whether the whole Faith and the Mayor relationship counts as a Father one, and if so what amount of making out could there/was there.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 09:46 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
It'd count as a cross-gen and/or father-figur relationship, certainly, but not as incest as such, although it might hit some similar kinks. For me, while the Mayor was certainly a loving father figure in Faith's life, there simply wasn't a level of intimacy between the two sufficient for the idea of tthe relationship to hit my kinks very solidly.

It's canon that the Mayor refused Faith's advances, at least on one instance.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-06-02 11:55 pm (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Faith)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
It's canon that the Mayor refused Faith's advances, at least on one instance.

That's why he sent his wife!

It should be not at all surprising that I am much a fan of Faith/Mayor. Not, like, Keith/Veronica levels of fannish, but definitely there.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-06-03 12:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
That's why he sent his wife!

And you see, as much as I love M&AP, I just can't reconcile it to canon to my satisfaction. There's always this underlying discomfort.

Faith/Mayor just seems radically different than all of the father/daughter pairings on so many levels.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:32 am (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Keith/Veronica)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
It's totally possible that I have drawerfic that exploits the possible sorority between Veronica and Lilly Kane. And involves Keith.

My mind is kind of exploding from all the potential incest. Good job!

(I'm a little surprised to see Kennedy on the father list given your commitment to canon homosexual identities. I can see your point, but I wonder how would you envision that working?)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 02:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I can see your point, but I wonder how would you envision that working?

I dunno. I couldn't think of anyone else to round out the list?

More seriously, I'm not sure if I have an across the board "commitment to canon homosexual identities." I do feel uncomfortable hetting Tara--although I think that was more true in which I was stricter in my approach to canon than I am now--and I get frustrated at fans' insistence they know Willow's sexuality better than she herself.

Kennedy is a little different can of worms, not least because she's an object of my heterosexual desire in a more intense way than Willow or Tara, thanks to Iyari being really, really hot.

I think there's an appeal for me in going WNSWJLEO with Kennedy that's not there for the other characters. Indeed, it's part of the version of the Watcher!verse which exists in my head, as there are totally Faith/Dawn/Kennedy/Giles orgies whenever the two couples get together. I have an idea for a story in which Dawn and Kennedy get telepathically linked, and one of the ways Kennedy knows something is wrong is she suddenly finds Giles sexually desirable, and Faith mocks Ken because Ken's totally slept with Giles, leading Kennedy to explain her sexuality wrt men. (I may even have considered plotting babyfic where Ken gets pregnant from one of those orgies.) But Kennedy's homosexuality is one of her defining characters in a universe where everyone else seems bi.

And incest fic already fits into WNG/WNS structures, as metafandom covered a while ago, so I don't I ever really saw Kennedy/her father as ever calling into question Kennedy's strict homosexuality.

But mostly I was just for a lost for someone to make five.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 03:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Although the more I think about it, all of the potentials need excellent fathers to make out with. I feel sad that I denied Molly and Amanda and Vi all the hot father/daughter action, especially as they would make more sense on the list than Ken.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 04:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] cadence-k.livejournal.com
I have a question for you. Have you ever meta-ed about why the sibling or parent-child relationships are possibly more guh-worthy for you?

I'm asking because of my interest in the Peter/Nathan relationship on Heroes. It's the first time I've been this into a incest ship and it's made me think about how the fact that they are siblings makes it more interesting for me. Yeah, I would be ship them if they weren't brothers but the fact that they are - that they have that history and that extra level to their relationship - makes it that much more complicated and therefore *interesting*.

Since you are brilliant, I'd love to hear your thoughts on this :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 08:51 am (UTC)
ext_72: (bad in the latin)
From: [identity profile] prehistoric-sea.livejournal.com
I second this :-)

Also, it's always fun when people can surprise me by planting an idea in my head that's hot even though I never would have expected it to be. I don't kink incest at all, but:

4. Malcolm Reynolds

Yes. Just--yes. Especially if he were the town Shepherd in some kind of The Scarlett Letter scenario. Oh, sorry, we were talking about *your* kinks. I got distracted . . .

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 10:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
See my response to Cady above, although you of course have already read my "Incest and Adolescent Fantasy" post.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 10:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
My incest tag includes some posts you might find interesting, but in particular I'd point you to a meta post of mine called Mmm, 'Cesty: Incest and the Adolescent Fantasy in which I talk about what's innately in incest pairings, cross-gen pairings, etc. In short, by putting the characters (mostly girls) into situations where their consent is problematized, I give them the opportunity to rise above the problematic situation and exercise their (sexual) autonomy: "For me (I won't speak for anyone else), the sexualization of these relationships is a response to--and a reaffirmation of--the fantastic element which attracted me to these texts in the first place: the radical autonomy of the pre/teen characters."

The other element I'd want to mention, and about which I haven't really meta-ed (but others have, though I couldn't find the links) is that incest, especially fantasy incest, is a powerfully intimate relationship. You
basically have the roles of sibling, best friend, and lover all wrapped up in one, which is really appealling in its own way, especially to someone not comfortable interacting with people not already in one's circle. This is why twincest pings so powerfully, too. Especially in fandom sex is used as a signifier of emotional intimacy, so incest takes the emotional intimacy already present in a sibling relationship and amplifies it.

Incest Meta Link

Date: 2007-05-23 10:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I'd recommend MMWD's pst on "It's not incest, we just love each other" as holding an appeal paralleling WNGWJLEO (that is, the social mandate against interest is useful in making the relationship more perilous).

There was some SPN incest wank a while back, and there were some good defenses and descriptions of fictional incest's appeal, but I can't seem toi find those posts at metafandom.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-23 05:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] faith-chaos.livejournal.com
This was... rather strange. Interesting though.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-26 02:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Glad you found it interesting. Me, I'm still going "guh."

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-26 06:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] faith-chaos.livejournal.com
Well, it made think didn't it?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-06-02 11:57 pm (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Keith/Veronica kiss)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
Good on you with the incest tag. *delights* (I totally celebrated the reinstatement of the fannish journals by finally uploading this icon. Which I feel should be interpreted in a gen way, of course.)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-06-03 12:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I used the interests manager to change it when the first wave of rumours began going 'round. Didn't manage to delete "fictional incest" from my interests until afterwards, though, due to the simultaneous DDOS server issues (which still won't let me post my Summer picspam--woes!).

(no subject)

Date: 2007-12-01 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Heh. If we trusted what you claimed, we'd be thinking that you thought people had sex in a gen way.

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