alixtii: Mal and Kaylee, from Serenity the Movie. Text: "I Love My Captain." (iluvmycaptain)
[personal profile] alixtii

This post is a response to [livejournal.com profile] melannen's much-recced (and deservedly so) post on the slasher's gaze, but more directly a response to a couple of responses to her post, namely[livejournal.com profile] ithiliana when she says, "I'm going to immediately complicate it by asking about 'the femslash gaze' (because although people are convincing me that slash can be f/f as well as m/m, her meta seems to focus on the male object of slash gaze…..)," and [livejournal.com profile] kyuuketsukirui when she asks "The very fact that there are two men involved means there will be men doing the looking and men being looked at. This applies for gay porn, lit, even real life. How can it be something specifically slashy/the defining characteristic of slash?" To respond to both of these points, however, I think requires a deeper engagement with the original post that prompted these responses. In particular, I want to use lots of examples, because that is that for which Grace (=[livejournal.com profile] kyuuketsukirui, but easier to type) asked.

[Note: This was originally longer and more coherent, and then I lost that draft. Since then it's been sitting on my hard drive getting less and less topical. I really don't have the time right now to perfect it any more, so I give it to you as it is.]

The Het Male Gaze

Now I actually talk about the het male gaze quite a bit, as long-time readers of this journal of course know. I am a het male, and as such I consider it to be incumbent upon myself as a feminist and a person of privilege to be constantly interrogating that subject-position. More on what I think about it in a little bit, but first let's examine [livejournal.com profile] melannen's gloss:

The "male gaze" is a concept that comes out of feminist media theory. Not having ever formally studied either feminism or the media, I came to the idea mostly through fandom - through online comics fandom specifically, where it's an *extremely* self-evident and relevant idea. It's a kind of sticky concept, but for the purposes of this discussion let's define it as something along the lines of "the assumption that the most important members of any audience are straight males." As a result, everything that we see in the media is first passed through the filter of "would this be attractive to that hypothetical straight male?"

It came out of film theory, I believe, talking about where the camera points and how we choose what is shown on screen, but it's very easily extensible to real life: everyone who performs a female character on screen is expected to think, first, about what the straight male wants - well, so is everyone who performs a female identity in *real life*. In fact, once I started thinking along those pathways, I've had trouble turning it off. How much of what we see in the images around us, in advertising, books, movies, celebrities, fashion - is based on what we think that stereotyped default straight male wants? And as a result, how much do women have to always act in the awareness of their own sexual desirability, and the percieved importance of that desirability?

From a fannish perspective, one of the archetypal instances of the het male gaze in fiction is Frank Miller's All Star Batman & Robin.

Here's a passage which is, in my opinion, indicative of the het male gaze, from my own writing--my Fred/River NC-17 dubcon teacherkink crossover story "School of Lost Souls":

“Three minutes even,” Lei said, looking up from the stopwatch in her hand.[*] “That’s thirteen seconds off your previous record.”

River nodded, then pulled herself up out of the pool. She had already known how long it took her to swim the laps; she had been counting herself. But she didn’t say anything, simply picked up a towel and made her way to the natatorium’s locker room, where she changed out of her bathing suit, showered, and put back on her school uniform. Her exercise regimen for the day completed, she made her way back to her dormitory, planning to work some more on her conceptual matrices before it was time for dinner.

[*The Torchwood fan in me is admittedly giggling like mad over the presence of the stopwatch, but I have to point out that I wrote this fic a full year before "They Keep Killing."]
Ands here's my gloss on the passage in my DVD commentary:

This scene serves several important functions. It shows River engaged in homosocial activity with another girl, a powerful healthy moment in which she is able to connect before she is cut off from her classmates, giving us a better sense of what life on Academy Station is like. It reminds us that River is an excellent athlete, and shows her utilizing that athleticism. And it allows me to imagine River in a bathing suit. And changing out of a bathing suit and using a communal shower. And putting on a school uniform--and believe me, the use of a schoolgirl uniform as a manifestation of a hetboy fantasy is deliberate, evocative of the patriarchal order controlling the way in which she displays her body. Even under the relative freedom River enjoys at this point of the story, there is a sense in which she is always made an object.
Even though the narrator of the story is ostensibly inside River's mind--the entire story is written from River's POV--she is still being put forth as an object for desire. Some (although not all) of what is going on is there simply to cater to my own desire: I, Alixtii O'Krul V, a heterosexual male, enjoy imagining River Tam in a bathing suit, in the nude, in a schoolgirl's uniform. Here we have a return of the bifurcation which is more clearly seen in the Frank Miller scans, which include in thought boxes Vicki's internal monologue but adopts for its visuals the notion of a "camera," an omnipresent voyeur.

Here's an even more explicit exercise in the het male gaze, in that it operates both diegetically (Watsonian-ly) and extradiegetically (Doylist-ly), from my RPF fic "Bullshit":

You make a noncommittal noise, but Morena will have none of it. "Really, Joss, how could you let that happen?"

You disavow responsibility as quickly as you've done anything in your life. "Summer's a big girl," you say, but even as you say it, you know it's bullshit. What's worse, Morena knows it is bullshit, knows full well that you masturbated last night imagining Michelle fucking Summer (visualizing Summer's bare white breasts and ass (oh, what an ass) and Michelle's ravenous pussy (cunt, you think at first, but instantly backpedal mentally)) and Morena's eyes hold no absolution.

Michelle Trachtenberg and Summer Glau have become so objectified by Joss's het male gaze that they've ceased to have a real existence for him outside their rôle in his masturbatory fantasies.

Now, obviously I don't think the het male gaze is intrinsically evil. I enjoy looking at attractive women, and I'm not particularly ashamed of the fact, nor do I exactly plan on stopping. The problem with the het male gaze is that instead of being a gaze, it has become instead the gaze, a gaze which does not turn off, which is weirdly omnipresent even when heterosexual men aren't actually present, which becomes so deeply embedded in our society that women find it difficult to position themselves as any type of subject rather than merely an object, when women's entire being suddenly becomes constructed as being something which exists purely for the sake of men. To be able to turn it off--to be able to masturbate in private about Michelle screwing Summer (no, I can't bring myself to curse in my own voice, grrr), and then to go on the next morning to treat them with all of the dignity that they as human beings deserve--it is what every heterosexual male has to train themself to do. (It doesn't come naturally, because our society is set up so that we never have to do it if we don't want to.) "Bullshit" posits Joss (fictional Joss, of course) falling short of this not because he derives pleasure from the thought of Michelle and Summer having sex--I mean who wouldn't?--but because he allows his desire to prevent him from intervening when he knows, deep down, that he should.

The Queer Female Gaze

But what, specifically, is so "het male" about the gazes put forth above? Fandom is a wide and wonderful place, and despite the darkest NC-17 incest chan BDSM noncon fic I could possibly write, there's going to be somebody writing something darker. Is the het male gaze demonstrably different than the queer female gaze?

The almost silent hum of the AC is the only sound that interrupts their kiss-and-slide wetness; the building is sterile and chilly and Lilah's office even colder. Fred hears it every time Lilah shifts against her, the sound her breath makes escaping in gasps from her lungs, the soft sound of Lilah's stiletto sinking into Fred's long-abandoned skirt, the skitting sharpness of her own gasp when Lilah's hand finds her breast and tugs, hard, on her nipple.

Every time she comes here, Fred becomes a little softer, a little more pliable in Lilah's hands, a little less surprised when Lilah bites her, when Lilah's fingernails scratch her, when her fingers breach her. She's softer and more demanding all at once, settling into the discomfort of being naked and cold and pressed against a plaster wall, comfortable enough in her discomfort to whisper meaninglessly into the silence, to wrap her own arms around Lilah's head and pull her down to her breasts. When Lilah's teeth scrape Fred's skin, her mouth opens but she makes no sound; the gasp is swallowed in surprise when Lilah bites down.
From "Gather Paradise" by [livejournal.com profile] wisdomeagle. Guh.

Um, wait, was I saying something?

Oh right. Het male gaze. Queer female gaze. We see the same bifurcation here we saw in Frank Miller and myself: the narration is inside the head of the object of desire (Fred), but she is set up in a tableau which is quite transparently there because [livejournal.com profile] wisdomeagle thinks it's hot. (Because it is.) (Note, this is NOT a criticism, anymore than I was criticizing myself when I pointed out how putting River in a bathing suit was an example of the het male gaze. If it makes sense in terms of plot and theme and character, then why the hell not do it?)

Has Ari just internalized the het male gaze? Perhaps to a degree, but I don't think that undermines the validity of such a desiring gaze as an element of her queerness. We're not talking about some idealized queer female, after all, but queer females as they exist today in fandom. I think in the name of empowering queerness we can't reject the legitimacy of this type of queer female gaze. (All gazes are, of course, by definition objectifying: there is one who sees and one who is seen. Is this problematizable from a feminist position? Hell, yeah--after all, what isn't? But I don't think we're ready to go quite that deep in analyzing fandom. In the end, we think in terms of subject-verb-object, and deconstructing those thought structures might be more radical than I'm prepared to go in this essay.)

I think of the ways that, at the very least, the queer female presence here in LJ media fandom femslash communities have appropriated the semiotic markers for female adolescent sexuality traditionally used by heterosexual men--and by "markers" I basically mean "the skirt." In the passage quoted above from my DVD commentary for "School of Lost Souls" I discussed the "the use of a schoolgirl uniform as a manifestation of a hetboy fantasy"--but one only has to look to the movie D.E.B.S.--and the femslash community which has responded to it--to see that very symbol taken and used in a lesbian context. Similarily, I look to Bring It On's use of the cheerleader mythos, and the way that femslash fandom has latched onto that movie as well. These are very female-positive movies, and the skirt--which is always-already a symbol of visual objecthood; one wears a skirt to look good in it--does not denote a place of passivity, but rather one of very real power. (Although there is more going on--inside both movies that skirt-centered female power is embedded, at least initially, within a system of male power--but that's not something, I think, which is seen as primary by those whose respond to the texts in fandom.) The het male and queer female gazes, then, seem to draw on a similar store of cultural iconography. Apparently, if there is something we--het males and queer females alike--seem to be able to agree on, it's that we like skirts.

The Femslasher's Gaze

[livejournal.com profile] melannen has this to say about femslash:

And f/f stories, which often work by sidelining the male gaze entirely and putting all the power into woman's desire, assigning the supposed 'male gaze' explicitly to a woman looking at a woman.
All gazes are, of course, by definition objectifying: there is one who sees and one who is seen. Is this problematizable from a feminist position? Hell yeah--after all, what isn't? But I don't think we're ready to go quite that deep in analyzing fandom. In the end, we think in terms of subject-verb-object, and deconstructing those thought structures would be more radical than I'm prepared to go in this essay.

Okay, if we assume that [livejournal.com profile] wisdomeagle is representative of a femslasher's gaze (because if she isn't, then who is?), and that Frank Miller isn't (because if he is, then who isn't?), what is the basis for that decision? (We'll put myself to the side as a problematic middle case for the time being.) Honestly, I think only one definition is really tenable: the femslasher's gaze is a gaze which sees woman as its object from a position within a community of women.

(I don't think a purely textualist/formalist understanding of the femslasher's gaze is possible. In this as in all things, context is key.)

"School of Lost Souls," the story I quoted from above--a story absolutely saturated with the het male gaze--was written to be read by women. In part, it was written for specific women. I knowingly tailored it to [livejournal.com profile] wisdomeagle's kinks, and it was written in a 'thon exchange (specifically, for [livejournal.com profile] femslash_minis) for [livejournal.com profile] voleuse. It's not just a story written by a heterosexual male about a fifteen-year-old girl who is seduced by her teacher. It's part of a conversation between a large manifold of people, many of them queer females.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-28 10:43 pm (UTC)
ext_21:   (Default)
From: [identity profile] zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com
I think you meant to reference http://ithiliana.livejournal.com/678341.html?style=mine. The post you linked to is laughing at conservapedia.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-28 10:48 pm (UTC)
ext_21:   (Default)
From: [identity profile] zvi-likes-tv.livejournal.com
And I don't think you meant that post by Grace either, but I can't find the one you did mean. :(

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-28 11:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
That's okay, I found it!

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-28 11:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Thank you. God/ess only knows what happened to my links.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 12:27 am (UTC)
ext_841: (dean (by lim))
From: [identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com
I'm gonna have to think a bit more about this but I really, really loved a gaze which sees woman as its object from a position within a community of women, which I think actually might work equally for slash if you substitute man. [And I really don't think the sexual orientation of the reader/writer is all that relevant here, b/c straight women have long been pushed into the position of the male gaze, so I think it makes sense to suggest that we all can see objects of desire beyond our default sexual orientation, b/c ultimately they're *textual objects* (or visual at best)...I might even go so far as to say that no real penises ever show up in slash fic...phalluses at best, b/c they're bearers of symbolic power much more than actual RL men... {my spellcheck doesn't like phalluses, but it's a u declination right? not phalli??? *bg*}]

Anyway, to get back on track...I love the fact that you rebut Grace's question as to the writer's actual sex with the community argument. And frankly, at that point, it doesn't even matter if the majority of writers were 15 year old boys...the very fact that we've created this *as* a female community and the way discourses about gender circulate, makes this the relevant subject position for the gaze (unlike Nifty, which very clearly defines itself differently!)

And the fact that we're dealing within the context of a community is important for so many reasons (all of which I tried to lay out in my last essay :), but I'm just thinking of the way we look at chan, for example, and very much regard the fact that it's women writing for women, for example, to make a difference. I mean, it's like we're bringing intent in through the backdoor in contextual analysis (i.e., we're clearly not middle aged pedophiles but possible abuse survivors, etc...)

Not sure where I'm going wit this, but yes, the community is a really great way to approach this (like you didn't know i'd say that :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 10:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
This post came from two places, mainly: Grace's absolutely correct objection that the "slasher's gaze" essay couldn't do what it claimed to do through a textual study alone, and my own struggles with "School of Lost Souls" as the type of story it would squick me to write for any other audience. Rebutting Grace's arguments at to actual sex was less a response to her and more a necessary move as I saw it, considering my own gender.

Also, less so, from seeing the Frank Miller's scans for the first time and immediately (mis)reading them as a deconstruction of the het male gaze, rather than as unironic (as they are generally interpreted). I read them the way I'd read one of [livejournal.com profile] wisdomeagle's fics, assuming a feminist community when in fact none actually existed.

It's odd that you should mention chan as an example, since "School of Lost Souls" falls under some of the broader definitions of the term--it's a crossover story about a teacher and a 15-year-old girl.

So I don't even so much rebut Grace's argument when I point out how community is crucial, because I couldn't write what I write for an audience of 21-year-old boys: I'd be squicked far too badly. (Not that I necessarily have a problem with them enjoying that sort of thing per se.) But as a member of this community, with this audience, I can have an idea of what the immediate effects of my fiction are, and under what hermeneutic conditions my fic will be interpreted, and they are IMHO very positive.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 12:26 pm (UTC)
ext_150: (Default)
From: [identity profile] kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com
community is crucial

I guess that's where it's failing to click for me, because I just don't get that aspect of writing/fandom on a fundamental level. So I keep trying to look for a difference in the text and not seeing it and going "but wait..."

For myself, I don't care whether my audience is male or female or neither, so long as they give me feedback. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 12:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, for "School of Lost Souls," I never say whether the situation is good or bad, or who is at fault. I know that, given my audience, I don't have to. The scenario is erotic, sure, but so is a woman's rape fantasy; it's not a condoning of the premise of the fic, and that's taken for granted by a community of feminist readers that teachers should not sleep with their teenaged students.

If my audience was, OTOH, a bunch of guys going "Ooh, tap that young jailbait student ass, teacher!" or "Scored with the teacher! Cool!" or "It's the student's own fault she ended up badly, because she had sex" it'd be sending a completely different message, shaping the audience in a completely different way, and I wouldn't be comfortable with it at all.

(no subject)

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Date: 2007-03-29 07:09 pm (UTC)
ext_6334: (Mr. T and Boy G)
From: [identity profile] carenejeans.livejournal.com
I might even go so far as to say that no real penises ever show up in slash fic...phalluses at best, b/c they're bearers of symbolic power much more than actual RL men...

I wish you'd explain that more, because I think I disagree with it rather violently. 8-) I see slash more as rejecting the phallus and celebrating the penis -- I mean, the specificity of the organ as opposed to symbolic power...

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 07:24 pm (UTC)
ext_841: (dexter neat monster (by liviapenn))
From: [identity profile] cathexys.livejournal.com
just a quick notice that I saw and hopefully will have a bit more time to think about this at length but my short answer would be that I subscribe ultimately to the we're not actually reading/writing real men but fictional constructs that serve certain purposes and fulfill certain desires...and in that reading the symbolic function these characters fill is more central than their actual bodies and the sex scenes are quite often metonymic representations of the emotional intimacy...

now, clearly there are tons of we just lust after these guys and want to see them as naked and sexing it up as possible, but the rejection of ATG (or even any two bodies that look like our characters) suggests to me our investment in the ROLES rather than the BODIES and the function they perform for one another rather than just the sex they are having...

Not sure I'm making much sense, but if you can tell me where you see the celebration of the penis as actual organ rather than the hyperfunctioning multiorgasmatic often always erect phallus???

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Date: 2007-04-15 01:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I've argued it before, but I think contextual analysis always opens up the possibility of bringing intent in through the backdoor. It didn't come to terms with the idea easily.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 07:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] were-lemur.livejournal.com
Oddly enough, this post inspired fic: http://were-lemur.livejournal.com/29691.html#cutid1

(no subject)

Date: 2007-03-29 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ithiliana.livejournal.com
Agh, i have a whole slew of other work to do, and cannot take the time to delve into this now (have bookmarked it though!)

A few quick responses: in years of being on feminist sf lists and seeing huge debates over what makes a work "feminist," I've come to the conclusion that anybody who tries to argue that "it" whatever it is cannot be solely in the text (or perhaps even largely in the text), because there is so much that is contextual, including the reader and her/his historical context.

And context inescapably include the relative social privileges/powers of the readers (which is why I like the idea of a gaze from within the community of women which is not saying that all women are equal, far from it, but does remove male privilege).

It would be a lot easier to do what pure formalism theorized doing (just look at elements of the text and "scientifically" prove some argument) but that effort failed (and its failure is shown in the changes in the academic disciplines relating to text analysis).

And I need to note eternal search for bisexual slash/erotics in fan fiction (not many out there, sigh).

I am currently working on a paper where I am writing about my queering of Éowyn (covering among other things, my proto-femininist reading of her as a totally cool awesome character and my dislike of the marriage ending when I was age 10, against all Tolkien's stated intentions and even textual proof if you read "with the grain" of the novel, and my adult reading of her when I came back to it as a feminist and queer--and I attribute some of my development into feminist/queer/pagan to LOTR!) and realized I now want to write a G story about Ioreth tending her in th Houses of Healing (Ioreth is there when they heal Faramir but is not--in the sense of being referred to or speaking!--when they heal Éowyn!). Part of what is lacking (understandably) in Tolkien's work is any sense of a community of women (that's an ongoing issue for femslashers--it's not enough to have the one strong woman early feminist critics sometimes thought sufficient--it's the need for a whole world of women who have a whole world of relationships!).

Erm, sorry, but this is all so fascinating.....



(no subject)

Date: 2007-07-20 10:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
And I need to note eternal search for bisexual slash/erotics in fan fiction (not many out there, sigh).

Not many what out there? I'm assuming you're talking about academic treatments?

NkTJmeqeGRdENQsNTK

Date: 2012-05-04 04:31 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
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(no subject)

Date: 2007-04-30 07:05 pm (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Stacey McGill)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
[For someone who's away from LiveJournal, I'm writing an awful lot of too-long comments. Sheesh!]

I tried to respond to this awhile ago but ended up running out of time. Today I have a paper to write, so that's not an issue. I have all the time in the world... :p

if we assume that wisdomeagle is representative of a femslasher's gaze (because if she isn't, then who is?)

While I obviously continue to be happily flattered and indulged by your high opinion of my writing, I really feel that I'm more of an outlier as a femslasher than you allow. Maybe, of course, I'm protesting too much; I've written an insane amount of femslash (as well as het and boyslash and OT+), and surely something in my ouvre is representative. And I do appreciate your using "Gather Paradise" since I feel it's probably the hottest thing I've ever written and it certainly got the "I'll be in my bunk" response. In a sense I feel "Pinpricks" or "Motherhood and Apple Pie" or of course "Incurable" are more representative of my subject position as a lesbian, which admittedly is not precisely the same as my position as a femslasher.

Thinking about the idea of skirts, cheerleaders, girls' locker rooms, and so forth, I realize that these things excite me textually and symbolically, and I appreciate movies about girls, female spaces, and so forth, but not quite as much as the next femslasher. Or rather, these things interest me as femslasher, but as a lesbian, I'm pretty much interested in the CJ Creggs of the world.

Has Ari just internalized the het male gaze? Perhaps to a degree, but I don't think that undermines the validity of such a desiring gaze as an element of her queerness.

I found your critique of that scene from "Gather Paradise" really instructive, because while we discussed it when the fic was posted (you thought it was hot, I thought it was hot, it was a moment), I hadn't really thought about the ways in which (and your absolutely right) Fred is objectified from inside Fred's point of view; what's hot is Fred-as-object, laid bare and vulnerable for the enjoyment of Lilah and then, by extension, the author and the readers. (Which is really very similar to Eves, a Lilah/Cordelia fic in which much the same dynamic is at play; it's from Cordy's point of view; Cordy is bottoming to Lilah; I constructed a series of very visual images of how hot they, but especially Cordelia, looked (together).

Come to think of it, the moment in "Motherhood and Apple Pie" when Faith undresses for Edna Mae is exactly the same -- the striptease is sexy because Faith is sexy. It's sexy for Faith because she's doing something on command to please Edna Mae, but it's sexy for Edna Mae, and the reader, because it's Faith, stripping. (The writer pleads the fifth on how she finds that particular scene hot).

So clearly, I do exactly what you've described, and I do it to characters I identify with (however temporarily, as with Faith in "M&AP"), which is where I find my queer gaze so interesting (that and the part where I'm eternally fascinating to myself) in a way that the het male gaze isn't necsilaly necceissarily necessarily -- not that identification with the submissive or objectified partner is a required element of lesbian-written femslash, either -- although your consistent identification with teenage girls of course adds a twist to that, and it's facile to assume that identification (or desire) always falls out along gender lines.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-04-30 10:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I'm tempted to wait until tomorrow to respond, so I won't have to worry about enabling your procrastination. But I'm even more tempted to respond right away.

I'd be very interested to find out what you see as being at the core of the femslash fandom of which you find yourself to be an outlier. I almost think it is in the nature of a femslasher herself to be an outlier, but you don't strike me as all that different from the other femslashers on my flist, most of whom I friended back in the days of [livejournal.com profile] femslash_minis. Certainly you have kinks they do not, and those kinks are made manifest in your ouvre, but I don't see them as all that a defining characteristic. Of course, I not only chose you as an example because a) I have a high opinion of your writing, and b) I thought you at least reasonably representative, but also c) I know your ouvre better than any other femslasher who isn't me (I, technically).

In particular, would there be more examples of women desiring rather women being desired in someone else's ouvre? Possibly, but the superficial searches of other [livejournal.com profile] femslash_minis alums' femslash I did didn't reveal any readily apparent differences in the way the desiring gazes were constructed. (Or else I would have used those stories instead of "Gather Paradise.") But maybe I was looking in the wrong places, and I admittedly wasn;t looking very hard at that point.

Thinking about the idea of skirts, cheerleaders, girls' locker rooms, and so forth, I realize that these things excite me textually and symbolically, and I appreciate movies about girls, female spaces, and so forth, but not quite as much as the next femslasher. Or rather, these things interest me as femslasher, but as a lesbian, I'm pretty much interested in the CJ Creggs of the world.

I find this fascinating. Now of course I probably find many of these things more exciting than the typical femslasher, as the typical femslasher (being female) has access to their mundane reality whereas I do not.


Is identification with the submissive/objectified character predominate in femslash? (In m/m slash?) It's a question that I have to think about (and research about). I experience my het male gaze as something which is het and male--i.e. at least in part as a result of a biology and a socialization which needs to be, if not resisted, then at least to be the object of constant vigilance--but insofar as the constructions of maleness and femaleness we're talking about don't necessarily fall along biological gender lines, there's no reason a queer female gaze (or a gaze like a queer female gaze, since many of its features predate my actually knowing any queer females) couldn't exist alongside it.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-01 01:00 am (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Faith/Buffy)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
I'm tempted to wait until tomorrow to respond, so I won't have to worry about enabling your procrastination. But I'm even more tempted to respond right away.

The paper will still be there tomorrow, too (it's due on Wednesday) and I have other projects (of which you may or may not be the direct cause) to help me not write it. *g*

I'd be very interested to find out what you see as being at the core of the femslash fandom of which you find yourself to be an outlier.

In my first response to this, which I never posted and which I don't think is saved anywhere, there was a lot of the lady doth protest too much discussion of how even though I've paired her with half the female population of Sunnydale/LA and Kaylee and Tammy Metzler, I'm really not a Faith-girl after all. [In a now-familiar pattern, I left this comment to go to dinner and thus was a poor dinner companion to my family. I have more to say, though.] So I have a list of several things that I feel separate me from the panfannish femslash community, which I will mention then abandon because I agree with your next point. Those things are, though (in tendancies, not absolutes): lack of interest in reciprocity, in "two high-powered women" do anything, lack of a profoundly developed enemies kink, disinterest in schmoop between equals. In a sense this might all come back to the obvious set of fetishes that are most important to me -- age difference, power differential, student/teacher, and older women in general. Right now I'm particularly interested in these things and disinterested in anything else, but I can deny the ninety billion pairings and dynamics that I've written with interest over the past couple of yeras. I do tend away from fannish OTPs (across pairing-types) -- in SG-1, for instance, I can't quite bring myself to 'ship the femslash pairing that has actual textual support instead of the pairings that I find interesting (because my brain is broken). We discussed briefly how neither you nor I requested any of the most popular pairings for [livejournal.com profile] femslash07, though I admitted that I would have requested some of them if I'd requested in those fandoms. And in the sense that femslashdom is polytextual, polyfictional, polyfannish, kidlit-friendly and shortfic-driven, I really am a quintessential femslasher.

I almost think it is in the nature of a femslasher herself to be an outlier

That I think is absolutely true, and I decided over dinner that obviously, the idea of an "essential" femslasher is ridiculous. If we use femslash_minis as a sample, obviously I'm extraordinary because I wrote in every round but one, (and so did Settiai and Voleuse), but Bri and Cady are also extraordinary because they moderated, and so are you because you created the index. At the same moment that we're obvious choices as "representative," we have features even in our participation in that community that mean we can't be. Since [livejournal.com profile] viciouswishes asked several months ago if anyone even identified as a femslasher, there's obviously something unstable in the category; if it has a center there's no one there, just everyone circling it. (I think this is different from the boyslash community; where you might know what pairings the Essential Boyslasher 'ships -- John/Rodney or Dean/Sam, or has fandom found something new? -- whereas we don't have something similar in femslash, unless it's the very lack of One True Show, let alone OTP.

So while I still feel mildly alienated from a community that (amazingly!) isn't writing exactly to my kinks or flocking to my crackfic, I concede that conceptually there's no reason why I can't be a representative femslasher.

(no subject)

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(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-01 01:01 am (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Fred)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle

would there be more examples of women desiring rather women being desired in someone else's ouvre? Possibly, but the superficial searches of other femslash_minis alums' femslash I did didn't reveal any readily apparent differences in the way the desiring gazes were constructed.

I've vaguely considered the possibilities inherent in femslash_minis, since there's so much that's transparent -- what we voted for, what we requested, what we wrote, what we commented on -- and it's small enough that doing a study on it wouldn't be impossibly unweildy -- but laziness and procrastination are overpowering and so the data goes unexamimed.

I do wonder, though, if the fact that the femslash sentence is always "female subject desires female object" is meaningful, since women are both desired and desiring. Does it matter that Fred is displayed for Lilah, and for me, and for a (mostly) female audience (though Gloss is correct above when she notes the audience isn't entirely determined, and after all I write knowing that mine usually contains you)? Obviously, women are still viewed, gazed upon, objectified, but does the fact that women are doing the viewing and gazing imply that there's nothing permanent about occupying either position. (I was going to cite the summary of "Eves," but realized I was really thinking of "It Will Not Last the Night," -- "they are displayed for each other's pleasure." Which is from Fred's point of view and she gets tied up by Wesley and Lilah (as near as I can remember the plot.) I think I should give up trying to justify anything that includes Lilah and Fred.

Is identification with the submissive/objectified character predominate in femslash? (In m/m slash?) It's a question that I have to think about (and research about).

It's an interesting question. I had a brief exchange about it with someone in a metafandom'd post about incest awhile back -- she seemed to imply that women never identified with the less powerful partner, which I thought was very odd, but that wasn't her meaning after all. I think in a sense it's one of those things that doesn't get talked about, since the self-indulgent and personal aspect of, um, our hobby of reading and writing emotional and physical porn isn't always discussed -- and sure, that's valid; I don't really want to discuss (ever) all the reasons I ship Keith/Veronica like a deranged person. I'm also never entirely sure where if anywhere my identification lies while writing (and there's the oddity that I'm often in the point of view of someone I'm objectifying on another level).

I experience my het male gaze as something which is het and male--i.e. at least in part as a result of a biology and a socialization which needs to be, if not resisted, then at least to be the object of constant vigilance-

I love you, you know.

...
GOSHDARNIT. I need to split the comment AGAIN.

(no subject)

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Date: 2007-07-20 10:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Or rather, these things interest me as femslasher, but as a lesbian, I'm pretty much interested in the CJ Creggs of the world.

On re-reading this, I'm realizing that this sums up exactly my engagement with characters like Madison Sinclair and the Cuckoos. They're not the sort of people I desire--for one thing, I prefer brunettes--but they "excite me textually and symbolically" as, like the skirt, they are semiotically coded as objects of desire--I recognize them as what I'm supposed to desire as a het male, as a sort of romantic comedy prize or "win" status. I tend to talk a lot about "the purity of the archetype" when these issues come up. Which is part of what makes a Mac/Madison or Emma/Kitty dynamic, putting these types of characters up against the characters that I a) identify with and b) actually do desire myself.

Only, somehow, I end up to be way more invested in the textual/symbolic excitement than in my own actual meatspace desires. I mean, I can't even remember what (the actress who plays) Madison Sinclair looks like beyond the blonde hair).

(no subject)

Date: 2007-04-30 07:06 pm (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (CJ Cregg)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle

(All gazes are, of course, by definition objectifying: there is one who sees and one who is seen. Is this problematizable from a feminist position? Hell, yeah--after all, what isn't? But I don't think we're ready to go quite that deep in analyzing fandom. In the end, we think in terms of subject-verb-object, and deconstructing those thought structures might be more radical than I'm prepared to go in this essay.)

I understand your hesitance to deconstruct further, but I do feel that agency and objectivity are more complex even in a distinctly analyzable unit like a particular fanfic. For instance, I feel that one of the brilliances of "Incurable (The 'All You Zombies' Remix)" is the way it destabilizes any permanent subject, as the levels of rich indebtedness reveal. In "Incurable" River is symbolically stripped, but all three characters are objects of each other's desires (although I recall, and in skimming it seems to be the case, that Giles is so sexually passive that he hardly seems to be looking at all), are using each other physically -- but the elements of the gaze become so contorted by the remix that ultimately no one's on top, the final author in the flowchart. I think the possibility of the verb "inspires" makes the question interesting in this way: the reader is both subject of and subjected to the text; insofar as the text changes the reader, her thinking, her thought patterns, or inspires her (e.g., to higher flights of fanfictional fantasy), the text is never silent or entirely passive, and at the same moment, if the reader loses her passivity and becomes a literally active reader (as surely fen, or at least "fangirls" as you've used the term elsewhere, are), the text is no longer authoritative.

I think the same is true of gazing at pretty girls. It's a question I somewhat clumsily address in On the Cusp of Adulthood, where Cordelia muses on what I'm trying not to call the "feminine power" she has over men because of the way she dresses; the kind of power she has when she's sucking Wesley off. I am a shameful, shameful lesbian, but when I dress up in a short skirt and three inch high-heeled shoes, I feel fucking powerful as I never do when I'm pretending I'm butch, because I know I look hot. (And in rereading I see that you addressed that as well in your discussion of the skirt, which is both objectifying and empowering.)

There's also the fact that, when I'm in love with a woman, utterly and completely subjected to her whims, helpless with desire around her, I'm already constructing elaborate fantasies, and writing, the romans aux clefs (sp?!), the poems, everything, and insofar as writing is a phallic function, I have a kind of control that my women do not, because they've no idea what's going on.

(Is the Muse passive?)

You would not believe the things I am doing to avoid writing this paper.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-01 12:02 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
For instance, I feel that one of the brilliances of "Incurable (The 'All You Zombies' Remix)" is the way it destabilizes any permanent subject, as the levels of rich indebtedness reveal.

Well, the wonderful thing is the way in which I quite literally couldn't have done it by myself; the remix needs to be a remix in order to work.

I have a kind of control that my women do not, because they've no idea what's going on.

Really? I wonder.

(Is the Muse passive?)

Hmm. Under the typical metaphor, the artist is passive and the Muse is active, by inspiring. But if we have an active artist, is her relation to the Muse that of violation, of theft? The Muse is a sort of divine feminine, but is it the sort of divine feminism which is always-already contrasted with an earthly feminine (cf. the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception), to the detriment of the latter?

I think in the end both are equally passive: the Muse cannot help but to produce inspiration, and the artist cannot help but to take it from her. As in all things, we can construct agency where we will (where to speak of us constructing agency is to already have constructed it).

I am sure there are many things in heaven and Earth I would not believe.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-01 01:11 am (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (teachercrush)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
I have a kind of control that my women do not, because they've no idea what's going on.

Really? I wonder.


Me too. Interminably. At great length. In long and pointless emails. That is, if you're wondering about the "they have no idea" part. (Though n!m, at least, clearly does not know.)

As for the power part... well, it's much like "Incurable (The 'All You Zombies' Remix)" in that I'm trapped in an incredibly vivid fantasy world entirely of my own creation and yet I have no means of escape. I react incredibly strongly to people of a certain type, and in that sense no one has any real power, because it's all in my screwed-up emotional chemistry. As you say, "I think in the end both are equally passive: the Muse cannot help but to produce inspiration, and the artist cannot help but to take it from her."

I've discussed this a bit with Rachel, and how I'm not entirely sure what "Muse" means; insofar as women (or fictional men, or v. occassionally real men) are my Muses, they're the women I want to write (about), the voices in my head (not literally), the people whose stories I want to tell using their voices. On the other hand, there's inspiration like writing-partners are inspirational; Rachel and I wrote to each other and for each other and with each other and I think in some sense it's fair to say we were muses for each other. But yeah, that's definitely a counter-conventional usage.

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