Because I Couldn't Help Myself

[alixtii]

executrix liz_marcs linked to this debate over the canonicity of the Season 8 Comics and as much as I knew I should, I couldn't look away.

So far, I have wisely refrained from joining in, because why bother when you know the other person is incapable of listening? (Although I always have to wonder at people who treat the term "canon" as if it were transparent. We as fen invented the relevant sense of the word. Nobody uses it that way outside of our circles.)

I do want to point one thing out, though, here because my flist is capable of listening. Now, it doesn't matter what Joss Whedon says. We as fen define what is canon. But if we look at what he did say? He never said the comics were canon.

He said that he understood the comics to be canon, and he understood them that way because he was writing them.

You might argue that the difference in meaning is small, but I never assume that Joss Whedon doesn't know what he's doing when he is using language. He made a statement about how he saw the comics. He never, ever told us as fen whether we should consider them to be canon. And I don't think he would, other than a) ironically, or b) unthinkingly. Joss understands that "[w]hat may or may not have happened is entirely up to the viewer, that's what makes it art."

(And seriously, if I'm going to read Joss Whedon-penned comics, I want him to treat them as canon. That doesn't make them canon, but I want him to treat them that way.)

ETA: And liz_marcs is my hero all over again, as I read through the comments more fully. She and janedavitt bitchslap this guy into the next century.

ETA2: And I finally gave in and threw my hat into the ring:

Okay, if being able to quote Joss is the end-all of this debate...can you provide a cite for when he said the comics for canon. The case I'm aware of is a Whedonesque post where he stated that he understood them as canon and didn't say a word how we should react to them.

Other things Joss has said include "What may or may not have happened is entirely up to the viewer, that's what makes it art."

So if you're so high and mighty about being able to quote Joss, find me the quote where he's ever tried to force the way he sees the texts onto the fan audience. Not where he's just talking quickly or sloppily, but where he's saying "You have to believe this about Buffy, because I am Joss." I don't think you'll be able to do it.

And you know why? Because Joss Whedon understands theory better than you do.

ETA3: Actually, the whole exchange has me thinking about the fanboy/fangirl distinction I sometimes talk about with cathexys. This guy is so very much a fanboy. I can't help but think that his constant appeals to the Word of Joss and his inability to allow for any shades of grey in legitimate reader response somehow reveals an insecurity about his ability to exist outside of a hierarchical system--that he (unconsciously) sees fluidity of meaning as a challenge to his own position and power and privilege.

Sometimes I'm glad I'm a fangirl.

Comments

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

I can live with myself being specious, I think. But certainly Joss has has his own interpretation of what went on in canon; every fan does, after all.

In that sense, are you not appealing to Joss's authority as much as the so-derided 'fanboy?'

Only for apologetical purposes. Compare it to Saint Anselm treating the question of whether God exists as a real question, even though he doesn't consider it to be, in order to show that even by the logic of the "fool" who questions that existence (Anselm's term) was is inexorably (according to Anselm) required to assent that existence. Even if Joss didn't make the comments I point to, I would stand by my position on purely theoretical ground, but the fact that he did weakens the opposition's position, because it reveals the Joss-worship to involve an internal contradiction.

If someone doesn't accept the comics as canon, ain't nothing Joss can do about it. But I am really astounded by the fact that so many people feel the tearing need to say of the comics not just "I don't like them/I'm not interested," but to deny their canonicity.

Well, I don't think canonicity can really be denied, since canonicity isn't an innate characteristic of the text (how could it be?) but rather a function of the role that text plays in a certain discourse. The fans can fail to grant canonicity to a text, but they can't deny it, because there isn't anything to deny. Since the fans control the relevant discourse, they control the role the text plays within that discourse.

That said, I understand the pain that occurs when a large segment of fans fail to grant canonicity to a beloved text--my favorite episode in all of Whedon is "The Girl in Question," after all, and I got tired of all the handwaves and retcons long before Joss did it himself in the comics.

[rahirah]

Since the fans control the relevant discourse, they control the role the text plays within that discourse.

This is true - what I don't understand is why some of fans are actively trying to argue the comics into not-canon rather than simply ignoring them and allowing them to become not-canon by default. As they probably eventually will, simply because of their limited distribution in comparison to the TV show. It's not as if the Canon Police will show up and force anyone to write comic-compliant fic.

I don't even like the comics very much. I don't hate them, but I find myself rolling my eyes and muttering, "Lame," a little too often for comfort. I seriously doubt I'll ever use any of the comic stuff in my own fic, except maybe as background information. But I have no problem with them being canon. It's not like I was always overjoyed with everything that happened on the show, either.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Okay, I can see what you're saying, and I agree with it. Obviously, if someone spends the majority of their online time attacking the canonicity of the comics, one has to wonder why.

In general, though, I think the attacks on canonicity are in proportion to the pressure they feel to accept X as canon, as negotiations go on among the fans themselves as to whether they will accept the text as canon. In this particular case, the Canon Police did show up, after all.

Sometimes, I think a level of resentment is fair. I mean, I'm still muttering about "Lehane."

[rahirah]

I think in this case it was more like the Kanon Keystone Kops. *g*