alixtii: The groupies from Dr. Horrible. (meta)
[personal profile] alixtii
Liberal feminism provides for us a measure of just how far we have come.

Radical feminism provides for us a measure of just how far we have left to go.

Both measures are equally important, and losing track of either can be dangerous.

I do believe:
  • That racism, sexism, heterosexism, classism, etc. are systemic, subtly and ubiquitously embedded in our society in places both obvious and invisible, and about as deeply as one can get, in our language(s) (and in our unconsciouses which are structured like a language), in a superstructure which I alternately may call "patriarchy" or "systemic injustice." Remember the word radical comes from a word meaning "root": systemic injustice infects society at its very foundations.
  • Thus, that most if not all economies, governments, cultural forms, languages, etc. do in some way flow from this patriarchal root.
  • That racism, sexism, heterosexism, classism, and many but possibly not all other forms of systemic injustice are, if not quite equiprimordial, at least so deeply interconnected that it's never quite clear where one starts and the others end. This is a change in position from my teens when I saw all other forms of injustice as symptoms of sexism in a very second-wave sort of way.
  • As a corollary, that it is extremely unlikely that racism could exist in a truly non-sexist society (since there is a sense in which racism is always-already inherently misogynistic), and vice versa. It's even harder to imagine sexism existing in a non-heterosexist society or vice versa. This doesn't mean that once we stop sexism, racism will magically fix itself so much as that we won't be able to stop sexism until we've cleaned up our act on race issues as well. On the same pattern, stopping sexism won't heal the ozone layer, but I have no doubt that the anti-environmentalist urge which impels us to harm the Earth in first place is linked in some way to and motivated by misogyny.
  • That the various brands of privilege--white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, cisgendered privilege, etc.--exist even as they are so often invisible and taken for granted.
  • That while men are the beneficiaries of male privilege and have certain responsibilities as a result of that, they cannot be "blamed" for patriarchy in any unproblematic way. Indeed, that the urge to blame is itself a patriarchal logic.
  • That talk of reverse sexism or other "reverse discriminations" ignores the systemic character of real sexism, racism, etc.
  • That male and female are not essential categories but instead the complex interaction of self-identification, behavior, and social interpellation; that the division into male and female is ultimately the result of patriarchal logics.
  • That traditionally female values, behaviors, and spheres have been artificially devalued by systemic injustice and need to be reclaimed.
  • That being anti-sex (and this includes the passive-agressive "sacralization" of sexuality sometimes found in some religious traditions) is always-already being anti-female and misogynistic.
  • That pornography and sex work, while prone to abuse, are not inherently evil, and to view them as such can be misogynistic.
  • That there are radically liberatory possibilities in female writing and female pleasure. (Cf. pretty much any French feminist.)
  • That there is value in female safe spaces.
  • That in a fallen world "pretty good" sometimes has to be good enough; heterosexual sex (or, for that matter, homosexual sex) as practiced by most couples may not be immune to patriarchy or be radically egalitarian and consensual but that's hardly a reason to abstain so long as one is giving it the college try. That even problematic instances of autonomy must be encouraged and celebrated from within the patriarchy, and that to erase this trace of autonomy is to be cooperative with the patriarchal logic.
  • That one must use the master's tools to take down the master's house; i.e. patriarchy can only be dismantled from within, and it is possible to use its structures (e.g., "Christianity" or "the romantic comedy genre") against it. This will always necessarily require temporary compromises and cooptations, but can result in demonstrable improvements in both the short- and long-term (at least using the liberal feminist measuring stick). But there is no other choice: il n'y a pas de hors-texte.
  • That government legislation is a sometimes necessary but rarely if ever sufficient remedy to systemic injustice.
  • That the works of mercy needed to improve the lives of women under patriarchy are important as well as the social action needed to end it. (Cf."the two feet of justice" in Catholic social teaching.)
  • Silencing the voices of women and other members of other oppressed groups is never a good thing.
I have, in the past, referred to this complex of positions as "radical feminism," and may well do so again in the future.

The following positions are not ones that I particularly associate with radical feminism, not even my own unique brand of such, but which I think are compatible with it and good to hold in general:
  • That dissent, discussion, and dialectic are healthy. Many objections are not stupid and showing that one can respond to them can be a powerful persuasive tool.
  • Not getting things completely wrong is almost always a useful and valuable endeavor.
Also, I like slash.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 03:23 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
I guess I missed those 2nd wave arguments; I'm still kind of bewildered by the idea.

A society which doesn't care whether your bits are dangly or not wouldn't have any way to differentiate who you sleep with.

Sure they would. Unless by "truly non-sexist" and/or "without gender difference" you mean "incapable of telling the genders apart at all." Which would make getting pregnant kind of dicey.

Contrariwise, if we weren't so caught up with policing who we slept with, there wouldn't be so much need to differentiate people based on their dangly bits.

Maybe not as much, but there's still be lots of reasons. Maybe if the society had started out that way, it'd be different, but there are all kinds of reasons for men to prefer women in a subservient role that have nothing to do with sleeping with them and everything to do with money and political power and generalized fear of the feminine. There are lots of gay men who are madly sexist, and it certainly isn't because they're worried about sleeping with women.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 03:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Sure they would. Unless by "truly non-sexist" and/or "without gender difference" you mean "incapable of telling the genders apart at all." Which would make getting pregnant kind of dicey.

You can still have "able to get pregant" and "unable to get pregnant" without gender.

"Separate but equal" is intrinsically injust. But we have separate bathrooms. Why? Because we assume that people we lust after and who might lust after us won't show up there. The assumption in intrinsically heterosexist.

Maybe if the society had started out that way, it'd be different, but there are all kinds of reasons for men to prefer women in a subservient role that have nothing to do with sleeping with them and everything to do with money and political power and generalized fear of the feminine. There are lots of gay men who are madly sexist, and it certainly isn't because they're worried about sleeping with women.

But in a radical feminism, we're not looking at the surface phenomenon but the root causes. Thus the term.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 03:54 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
"Able to get pregant" and "unable to get pregnant" is still a pretty profound difference. It doesn't have to be called "gender" in order to potentially be problematic.

But we have separate bathrooms. Why? Because we assume that people we lust after and who might lust after us won't show up there.

Is that why? I think there might be more to it than that, which may also be sexist and/or heterosexist, but still.

But in a radical feminism, we're not looking at the surface phenomenon but the root causes.

But in order to effect change, you have to understand the world as it is. It's fine to say that in another reality where society had developed differently, a lack of heterosexism would automatically imply a lack of sexism, but the fact is that we live in this reality and this is how society developed, and men have more reasons than sex to want women to remain unequal.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 03:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
But in order to effect change, you have to understand the world as it is. It's fine to say that in another reality where society had developed differently, a lack of heterosexism would automatically imply a lack of sexism, but the fact is that we live in this reality and this is how society developed, and men have more reasons than sex to want women to remain unequal.

It's not a claim about another society; it's a claim that all sexist actions can ultimately be reduced to heterosexist causes. Now we can't magically remove the heterosexist causes, and the process of removing them precisely is that of combatting sexism, but understanding how the issues intersect can help us see how far we still have to go. Seeing them separate can help us attack them one at a time. Both perspectives are important.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 04:07 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
We may have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not convinced that all sexism has its root in heterosexism. I think that the fact that women are the ones who get pregnant, and that the average woman is physically smaller and weaker than the average man, can both lead to sexism (though I expect that sexism could go either way, that is, against either gender) without having anything to do with wanting to control anyone's sexuality.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, I have to question why it is we notice those facts in the first place anyway, while there is so much sense-data we simply ignore.

The average woman is not smaller until the average man until we have already defined "man" and "woman" in such a way that the people who fall into the first category or bigger than the people who fall into the second. I think language is always-already suspect.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 04:17 pm (UTC)
zillah975: (Default)
From: [personal profile] zillah975
Buh? Okay, and we're going to talk about this without language (more specifically, without a common language and a common set of definitions) how, exactly?

I think I'm too much of a pragmatist (and lack the time, patience, and probably Master's degree in...something, I don't even know what) to have this conversation.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-26 04:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, we're not, obviously. But we can use language to interrogate language, just as we can subvert patriarchal structures to interrogate patriarchy. We can, metaphorically speaking, make the blonde in the alley a vampire Slayer.

We've had four thousand years of history without a common set of definitions. Language doesn't need to be stable in order to work.

I'm not sure you mean by pragmatist what I would mean by pragmatist, To me, a pragmatist simply views language as a tool which is sometimes useful, sometimes not, and leaves questions of ultimate reality and being for someone else while working towards a political goal.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-27 04:15 pm (UTC)
beccaelizabeth: my Watcher tattoo in blue, plus Be in red Buffy style font (Default)
From: [personal profile] beccaelizabeth
Separate but equal" is intrinsically injust. But we have separate bathrooms. Why?
I always thought it was because people that pee standing up need different facilities. Or there's ones with sitting down, or sitting in a wide space with handles and different heights. or how there's kids bathrooms with very short toilets and all. Lots of different seperate bathrooms.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-27 04:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
But the signs outside the door say "Men" and "Women." (Except in my undergrad Women's Studies center, where they said--if I remember--"Boys Who Wear Skirts" and--erm, something else.)

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-27 04:26 pm (UTC)
beccaelizabeth: my Watcher tattoo in blue, plus Be in red Buffy style font (Default)
From: [personal profile] beccaelizabeth
Yeah, but Why? Because we assume that people we lust after and who might lust after us won't show up there. The assumption in intrinsically heterosexist. doesn't follow from the labels 'men' and 'women' unless you're assuming they're heterosexist, cause 'men' isn't necessarily about lust and can be shorthand for 'stands up to pee'. Or possibly 'makes more stinky', though I don't know why. I just have brothers and a sense of smell.

Is having one toilet marked 'disabled' evidence that (a) disabled is a seperate gender (b) disabled is a seperate lust category (c) disabled need different facilities. If c, why assume a and b about the other labels? Because of their other uses, obviously, but.

(no subject)

Date: 2008-03-27 04:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
cause 'men' isn't necessarily about lust and can be shorthand for 'stands up to pee'.

It could be. But . . . it isn't. If I look up men in the dictionary, I won't have "stands up to pee" in the lexicography. Men who sit down to pee and women who stand up to do so don't use the opposite sex's bathrooms.

And when we (men) don't need to stand up, we don't use women's bathrooms. We use the ordinary sitting-down toilets in men's bathrooms.

I wouldn't have a problem with "stands up to pee" bathrooms, except insofar as they acted as a way of invisibly re-inscribing gender and ended up not being about excretory mechanics at all, as I expect they would in a patriarchal society. . . .

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