*dies of the stupid*

[alixtii]

Oh yes, (systemic) sexism and racism don't exist outside the United States at all, do they? Feminism is simply just a part of some American agenda of cultural imperialism, and everyone knows that Western Europe is a utopia when it comes to gender and race issues. (Apparently everything I've read in the New York Times--not to mention The Guardian--is a big fat lie. Who knew?)

Really, how does one respond to that?

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Well I have no idea what context is currently making you mad, but as a general remark, as a Brit I frequently find discussions of gender, race and sexuality issues amongst Americans are very irrelevant to my own experiences. Maybe not sexism so much but racism certainly has a very different aspect, background, historical reality, current meaning, and more or less everything else over here, whilst sexuality as an issue has a common past but a very different present. We aren't a utopia, so anyone who directly says that is being daft, but we do do things very differently so a lot of American attempts to interpret a Brit on these issues will make no sense at all to the Brit and the Brit is very likely to dismiss everything the American is saying as a result. I admit I've done it myself a few times. Sometimes it's easier to just let the Yanks talk amongst themselves :o)

I think, as an American, you do need to accept and learn to understand the cultural hegemony you live in. I have no idea how wildly travelled you are so maybe this is not news to you, but I know a lot of Americans do tend to assume their default is what everyone experiences and hence frustration and cultural misunderstandings ensue. It is easier for us from our side because we are exposed to so much U.S. culture as well as having ready access to the wide diversity of European cultures so we are more used to spotting what is specific to us.

Besides, never forget that when it comes to class issues you are all rank amateurs over the pond, for any true Brit sexuality, sexism and racism fade into insignificance compared to class. :oD

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Er, that should be 'widely travelled', obviously, although 'wildly travelled' might be more fun in the right company.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't have any problem with someone claiming that race and gender issues operate differently elsewhere, because of course they do. It's when someone claims that that they don't have to pay attention to gender and race because their countries don't have those icky problems the Americans do that I begin to become suspicious--especially since I don't patriarchy is something that's that easy to escape.

The thing is, when someone tells me they don't see issue
X at work in their society, I tend to suspect they wouldn't see it at work in America either if they were here. (I mean, I've talked to plenty of Americans who claim to just not see any signs of systemic sexism here. Which makes me wonder if we live in the same reality, but still.) Which, okay, fine, that can be the basis for a productive discussion--as you and I have had--but as long as its being construed as a difference between America and the UK (or America and France, or America and Scandinavia, or whatever) it pretty much shuts the conversation down completely, when I suspect the true difference lies more in the perspective of the interlocutors than in their countries.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

It's when someone claims that that they don't have to pay attention to gender and race because their countries don't have those icky problems the Americans do that I begin to become suspicious--especially since I don't patriarchy is something that's that easy to escape.

Hmm, on the face of it that does sound as if they are being rather daft. It's hard to know exactly what was going on in their mind without seeing the actual discussion, of course. I suspect an awful lot of it is a problem I have had to overcome myself. We are brought up to believe it is rude to draw attention to differences of race or gender or anything else, because concentrating on those differences is what is perceived as causing racism, sexism etc., hence it is very awkward to discuss those things at all because by definition to discuss them is to draw attention to them. As such, only the extremist forms of prejudice are classified as prejudice, and since those things are thankfully rare many people will genuinely believe there is no real problem in their society. Actually, it is one of the inevitable results of having made life a lot better.

Americans, especially on LJ, seem either to genuinely have things far worse, or to be happier to discuss them (probably a bit of both) hence by comparison Europe and the UK often do feel like a utopia. But to go from that to saying there is no sexism, racism etc. is daft, so if you want to continue the discussion, probably your best move would be to get one of your European friends to go and tell them not to be so silly. That or meet them on their own ground by doing a bit of research into peculiarly European forms of prejudice. Male dominated clubs might be a good one - my introduction to the wonderful world of sexism was at the age of 14, when I was refused entry into the bar of my father's golf club not because I was under age but because I was - shock, horror - female! I presume such snobbery doesn't occur in America.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Americans, especially on LJ, seem either to genuinely have things far worse, or to be happier to discuss them (probably a bit of both) hence by comparison Europe and the UK often do feel like a utopia.

Definitely a bit of both, I think. If you only talked to Americans who were Evangelical Christians, you'd probably have a picture of America is a den of vice and sin. Talking to academic feminists--even if academic feminists is the "right" perspective--gives you a different experience of America because you are used to haveing a fuller set of perspectives on your culture (again, regardless of which are right or wrong or stupid).

There are plenty of Americans who feel that the best way to treat injustice issues is to ignore them, but they rarely self-identify as feminists and they're not the dominant voice in this corner of fandom.

The problem is when non-American feminists hear American feminists speaking and assume that because they don't see what the feminists are talking about operating in their culture, then those dynamics must not exist outside of American culture. Which misses the point that these dynamics are often difficult to recognize (at least at first) in any culture.

In the discussion mentioned, British feminists did eventually take over, which ultimately revealed the person in question to be a nutjob who thinks that women being raped is the fault of feminisms, because no one would have dared to rape her grandmother. (Or something like that; it becomes painful to read at some point, you know?) But the problem is that as long as she's going "Oh, you strange Americans" she seems sane, and other readers might think she has a reasonable argument.

[http://users.livejournal.com/peasant_/]

Ah, it sounds as if you have met a member of that fascinating sub-culture of Britain which we term 'a wanker'. It sounds as if your initial conclusion that you can't talk to her was right.

The problem is when non-American feminists hear American feminists speaking and assume that because they don't see what the feminists are talking about operating in their culture, then those dynamics must not exist outside of American culture. Which misses the point that these dynamics are often difficult to recognize (at least at first) in any culture.

I guess from your point of view, the tricky problem is to distinguish between people who are being blind to the dynamics and people who observe the dynamics but interpret their cause and hence subsequent action in a different way. Mind you, by definition most liberal feminists aren't in a discussion with radical feminists at all, so the problem probably doesn't arise as often as it should. And as you say, the radical types are certainly most vocal in this corner of LJ land.