On the Transformativity of Fanworks
Feb. 10th, 2010 07:55 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
alixtiiMy naive intuition is that podfic falls somewhere between remixing or otherwise writing fanfic of fanfic (which I most strongly maintain does not require permission) and archiving fic (which does, generally). Now while all the podfic meta I've ever read stresses the transformativeness of podfic, that's not necessarily at odds with my naive intuition. After all, I don't think I've ever heard anyone's describing OTW's mandate as including unlicensed audiobooks.
So I don't know.
And so, in the spirit of the original discussion post, a poll.
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative is fanfiction as a genre?
Mean: 7.42 Median: 8 Std. Dev 1.87
| 0 | 0 (0.0%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 2 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 3 | 3 (7.0%) | |
| 4 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 5 | 5 (11.6%) | |
| 6 | 2 (4.7%) | |
| 7 | 8 (18.6%) | |
| 8 | 14 (32.6%) | |
| 9 | 5 (11.6%) | |
| 10 | 6 (14.0%) |
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative (in relation to the original fic, not the canon) is podfic as a genre?
Mean: 3.86 Median: 4 Std. Dev 1.89
| 0 | 0 (0.0%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 5 (11.6%) | |
| 2 | 6 (14.0%) | |
| 3 | 10 (23.3%) | |
| 4 | 5 (11.6%) | |
| 5 | 9 (20.9%) | |
| 6 | 4 (9.3%) | |
| 7 | 2 (4.7%) | |
| 8 | 2 (4.7%) | |
| 9 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 10 | 0 (0.0%) |
When taken as genres, podfic is ___ transformative when compared to fanfiction.
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative (in relation to the remixed fic, not the canon) are fanfiction remixes as a genre?
Mean: 7.07 Median: 7 Std. Dev 1.61
| 0 | 0 (0.0%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 2 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 3 | 1 (2.4%) | |
| 4 | 1 (2.4%) | |
| 5 | 5 (12.2%) | |
| 6 | 8 (19.5%) | |
| 7 | 8 (19.5%) | |
| 8 | 11 (26.8%) | |
| 9 | 4 (9.8%) | |
| 10 | 3 (7.3%) |
When taken as genres, fanfiction remixes are ___ transformative when compared to fics which are not remixes.
When taken as genres, podfics are ___ transformative when compared to fanfiction remixes.
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative are fanvids as a genre, in relation to the images?
Mean: 7.33 Median: 8 Std. Dev 1.83
| 0 | 0 (0.0%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 2 | 1 (2.4%) | |
| 3 | 1 (2.4%) | |
| 4 | 1 (2.4%) | |
| 5 | 4 (9.5%) | |
| 6 | 3 (7.1%) | |
| 7 | 10 (23.8%) | |
| 8 | 12 (28.6%) | |
| 9 | 5 (11.9%) | |
| 10 | 5 (11.9%) |
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative are fanvids as a genre, in relation to the music?
Mean: 5.34 Median: 6 Std. Dev 2.81
| 0 | 2 (4.9%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 3 (7.3%) | |
| 2 | 3 (7.3%) | |
| 3 | 5 (12.2%) | |
| 4 | 1 (2.4%) | |
| 5 | 5 (12.2%) | |
| 6 | 7 (17.1%) | |
| 7 | 4 (9.8%) | |
| 8 | 5 (12.2%) | |
| 9 | 4 (9.8%) | |
| 10 | 2 (4.9%) |
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative is (static) fanart (other than photomanipulations) as a genre?
Mean: 6.68 Median: 7 Std. Dev 2.27
| 0 | 0 (0.0%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 2 (4.5%) | |
| 2 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 3 | 2 (4.5%) | |
| 4 | 4 (9.1%) | |
| 5 | 3 (6.8%) | |
| 6 | 10 (22.7%) | |
| 7 | 3 (6.8%) | |
| 8 | 10 (22.7%) | |
| 9 | 6 (13.6%) | |
| 10 | 4 (9.1%) |
On a scale of 0 and 10, with 0 being "not at all transformative" and 10 being "the most transformative I can possibly imagine," how transformative are manips as a genre?
Mean: 6.62 Median: 7 Std. Dev 2.30
| 0 | 0 (0.0%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 2 | 3 (7.1%) | |
| 3 | 2 (4.8%) | |
| 4 | 3 (7.1%) | |
| 5 | 6 (14.3%) | |
| 6 | 3 (7.1%) | |
| 7 | 7 (16.7%) | |
| 8 | 10 (23.8%) | |
| 9 | 3 (7.1%) | |
| 10 | 5 (11.9%) |
Is there a specific threshold of transformativity which is required to create fanworks without the original works' creators' permission?
If so, what is that threshold?
Mean: 3.69 Median: 4.5 Std. Dev 2.17
| 0 | 3 (18.8%) | |
|---|---|---|
| 1 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 2 | 1 (6.2%) | |
| 3 | 3 (18.8%) | |
| 4 | 1 (6.2%) | |
| 5 | 5 (31.2%) | |
| 6 | 2 (12.5%) | |
| 7 | 1 (6.2%) | |
| 8 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 9 | 0 (0.0%) | |
| 10 | 0 (0.0%) |
From the OTW FAQ: "A transformative use is one that, in the words of the U.S. Supreme Court, 'adds something new, with a further purpose or different character, altering the [source] with new expression, meaning, or message.' A story from Voldemort's perspective is transformative, so is a story about a pop star that illustrates something about current attitudes toward celebrity or sexuality."
Evaluate a genre's transformativity as a genre in whatever way makes sense to you, whether it is by singling out something you think is essential about that genre or by just taking all the fics you've read in a genre and taking their average transformativity.
Obviously the numbers you come up with will be somewhat arbitrary, and the whole process a bit overly schematic, but hopefully as an exercise it'll prove enlightening. If not, still a poll! Polls are fun! (Sorry for the lack of ticky boxes.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-10 01:54 pm (UTC)Naturally the OTW wants to define "transformative" as broadly as possible, but if we look at examples - like the audiobooks you mentioned - of transformative-ish works in the wild, then the extent to which "transformation" = "no longer affected by copyright" is much more restricted. For example, adding "a new expression, meaning or message" doesn't count as "transformative" when it comes to putting on plays. Now matter how radical your production, no matter how brilliantly you read against to the text, to produce a pacifist Henry V, or a psychopathic Hamlet, you're still expected to pay the playwright or translator whose text your production is based on (assuming they're still in copyright, of course). Interestingly, you cannot put a copyright on production details - these fall under "ideas" rather than "execution", so it's perfectly legal to nick another director's brilliant solutions to a staging difficulty, or a wonderful set.
This being the case, I'm inclined to think that manips, vids and podfics are less transformative than fanfic, because fic merely uses ideas, whereas vids etc. use actual material that someone else has already produced.
wbMytBedNJcRNRMJ
Date: 2012-05-05 06:54 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-10 02:10 pm (UTC)And IMO, none of the genres mentioned are transformative by definition - I have seen plenty of fic and vids and fanart that isn't any more transformative than a souvenir shop photo of the Eiffel Tower.
NJDopFHJrgCobXDmELd
Date: 2012-12-21 11:06 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-10 03:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-11 03:51 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-11 09:21 pm (UTC)I agree with this, and I think it's because the source canon is on a different level than any fic, art, etc. that people produce for it. That is, if you write a fic, no matter how much people love it, call it "their new canon" or whatever, the original is still the Truth for that universe. It is inherently more legitimate than the fic.
Conversely, fic does not have that kind of legitimacy over other fic. The original and the remix are on the same level, which can lead to problems fic based on original canons does not encounter. So I think those who believe that remixing a fic is the same as writing fic based on an original canon are really missing the elephant in the room.
beicYWPacmPi
Date: 2012-07-25 01:34 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-11 10:33 pm (UTC)I do too. Well, not "requirement" perhaps, but "courtesy". For me, the reason is that the fanfic author and I (the would-be remixer/podficcer) exist in the same general community, and the likelihood is high that they would come across my work. Just as I think it's polite not to shove fanfic in the faces of TPTB -- who may not want to know about it -- I think it's polite not to put one's fellow fans in the position of stumbling across remixes of their work as they're going about their normal day-to-day routine.
I realize even that's not completely logical, because I don't feel that one should ask permission before reviewing a work, even though of course the author might not want to stumble across a review that's not 100% positive. However, people do seem to take fanfic/remixes/etc more personally than reviews for the most part, so the extra layer of courtesy seems appropriate.
LuFBhHqLMtzFIgZHJ
Date: 2012-07-25 05:01 pm (UTC)RguuTGgEeOYwhfON
Date: 2012-12-21 04:15 am (UTC)NGmqzvfCJngijAtPejW
Date: 2012-07-25 09:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-10 04:18 pm (UTC)It's hard to answer "how transformative is fanfic?" without a connection to canon. In my mind, part of transformativeness is how much it changes audience and message from the original. So an opera based on a novel is likely more transformative than a short story based on the same novel; a text story based on the events of several episodes of a tv series is likely more transformative than vid based on a single episode.
To decide on transformative-level, I'd have to consider what could be transformed. Hmm ... media could be changed (is a switch from tv show to text story more or less transformative than a shift from song to text story? Is movie to vid more, less, or the same level of t'ness as novel to story?), character details could be added or subtracted or changed; character interpretation could veer wildly from author's intent or most readers' understanding; AU stuff could be thrown in; theme could shift radically (I'm pretty sure Rowling never thought of Hogwarts as an orgy festival); crossovers could be inflicted; canon details could be "fixed." Tone/lit genre could change--serious to funny; spy-adventure to romance; tearjerker to farce. Zombies could be added. Aliens could make them do it.
To decide how much is/is not transformative, I think I'd want to start by reading the books involved two most notable legal cases: Gone With the Wind/The Wind Done Gone and Catcher in the Rye/60 Years Later: Coming Through the Rye. The first was ruled transformative; the second was not. And since I haven't read any of the 4 books, I have little idea why. (I've read the court rulings, but that's different.)
I suspect that a lot of fanfic leans closer to TWDG--we do a lot of reinterpretation of characters, especially adding erotic overtones to situations that canon tries to keep "tame." We do a lot of retelling from an alternate perspective, shedding light on aspects of canon that are glossed over. We recast a lot of villains as heroes, and vice versa. We do a lot of things that can be described as, "this is never going to happen in the show/comic/books"--which is a fairly solid indication that it's been heavily transformed.
Can't speak for podfic; have never heard any. (Dialup internet.) From what little I know about it (I could be *totally wrong*), it's a fannish audiobook. Audiobooks count as "derivatives" or something resembling "translations"--not transformative works. (If I'm right about how they work, I'm still open to the idea that they really are transformative for various reasons. I just suspect a court would declare "that's an audiobook," and they have a mental niche for that category.)
I also think there's something off about rating transformativeness on a scale of 1-10; it doesn't work that way. Especially across the entire literary genre of fanfic. Not that numbers couldn't be assigned (erm, if I could figure out what to rate), but that there's no *purpose* to assigning a number across the genre, or even the subset of "those fics I have read."
One of the key issues in copyright law is that every case must be evaluated individually; if 90% of unauthorized sequels are "merely derivative," that doesn't mean the next one's not truly transformative and fully legal.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-10 04:22 pm (UTC)But I don't necessarily consider transformativity as an aesthetic value in and of itself (vs. a legal concept). For instance, an AU story would typically be more transformative viz. the source then a casefile fic, and slash would be more transformative than gen, etc., but that doesn't mean that the former types of stories are inherently better or more -- interesting? creative? -- than the latter.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-10 04:59 pm (UTC)Performance certainly makes a difference--you can't really say you've "seen Hamlet" because it matters who's playing the roles, whether it's set in 14th century Croatia, what the sets and costumes look like...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-11 08:13 pm (UTC)When you say 'podfic', do you mean an original fic that was recorded by parties A, or originally written by parties A and recorded by parties B? And then C? What if C's recording was better than B's?
Plus, AUs are more transformative then, say "What happened After book 7 of Harry Potter?"
Basically for me it boils down to And Then John was a Zombie. The original fic is DooM's very own My Immortal, but the 'podfic' is AWESOME. In that sense the podfic is transformative of the fanfiction itself.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-11 09:48 pm (UTC)Fanart varies a lot, a lot of people seem pretty comfortable posting what are basically straight traces/copies of photos or official art but you also have huge epic paintings done in a unique style, or OCs or stuff based on books etc. Plus fancomics *waves little fancomics flag*
I think the fact that most fanworks seem to be based on visual media makes it easier to create not very transformative fanart, I have for example been happy making fanart for shows I've never seen or read fic for etc based on reference images but wouldn't feel able to do that with fic or for book fandoms. But maybe I'm just biased by finding art easier!
And maybe I think manips and podfic aren't very transformative because I don't tend to like them and thus haven't encountered the full variety of their awesomeness :D
I think you can CREATE fanworks that are as transformative or not as you like (If drawing mustaches on magazines makes me happy it doesn't hurt anyone). Whether or not you should be able to publish them in any given public sphere is a different question, I say as I wait for the creator of a fancomic I made a fancomic for to get back to me about whether or not she's cool with me putting it online.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-02-26 10:16 pm (UTC)(no subject)
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