alixtii: Drusilla holding a knife to Angel's throat. Text: "Got Freud?" (Freud)
[personal profile] alixtii
After I accidentally deleted my open windows at skip=525, I worked my way back through my flist, reopening the windows, and IE crashed at skip=475. At that point, I gave up, and I'm just going to rely on newsletters to catch up. If anything interested, don't be afraid to drop a link in the comments.

Speaking of which, [livejournal.com profile] metafandom introduced me to this incredibly insightful comment:
JKR strikes me as a huge control freak a lot of the time, and it extends to the way the text is received, I think. It's as if she really thinks that we all should be reading the text a certain way, otherwise we're 'delusional' or whatever. And this approach trickles down to fandom where it becomes a problem because the point of any fandom is to bring together different interpretations of the text. I think it happens because overall JKR's trying to write a mystery, and in a mystery, other interpretations of the set evidence aren't important, and in some ways are even a threat to the end conclusion of the mystery itself. The problem is, I think, so much of her mystery relies on a concrete, black-and-white understanding of character motives when the characters she's created are all very deliberately grey. If that makes any sense.
I think this is brilliant, personally, because I do think that there is something about an Agatha Christie novel which challenges the sort of assumptions those of who are theoretically sophisticated routinely make. I think it comes out of the ethos which informs the detective novel, which is really positivistic at its core: it's the assumption that all questions can be solved by science, i.e. is the process of observation and deduction. If we all just knew how to look, the way that a Sherlock Holmes does, everything would be instantly transparent instead of seeing through a glass darkly.

(Tomorrow I get to write a critical theory on Lacan's "Seminar on 'The Purloined Letter'," so right now I'm full of all kinds of thinky thoughts about how it sometimes seems that a detective is looking for a transcendental signified, or rather like any positivist the police want a transparent non-contingent non-transcendental object, but Dupin is really looking for a signifier in a web of signifiers. Like any positivist, the police are just deluded transcendental idealists, but Dupin is able to make the Nietzschean/post-structuralist move.)

This conception of the detective story was at its height in the 1920s and '30s, and for me is really most purely epitomized by S.S. Van Dine's "Twenty Rules for Writing Detective Stories", just a few of which I'll quote here(a similar list can be found here:
1. The reader must have equal opportunity with the detective for solving the mystery. All clues must be plainly stated and described.

2. No willful tricks or deceptions may be placed on the reader other than those played legitimately by the criminal on the detective himself.

3. There must be no love interest. The business in hand is to bring a criminal to the bar of justice, not to bring a lovelorn couple to the hymeneal altar.

4. The detective himself, or one of the official investigators, should never turn out to be the culprit. This is bald trickery, on a par with offering some one a bright penny for a five-dollar gold piece. It's false pretenses.

5. The culprit must be determined by logical deductions — not by accident or coincidence or unmotivated confession. To solve a criminal problem in this latter fashion is like sending the reader on a deliberate wild-goose chase, and then telling him, after he has failed, that you had the object of his search up your sleeve all the time. Such an author is no better than a practical joker.

6. The detective novel must have a detective in it; and a detective is not a detective unless he detects. His function is to gather clues that will eventually lead to the person who did the dirty work in the first chapter; and if the detective does not reach his conclusions through an analysis of those clues, he has no more solved his problem than the schoolboy who gets his answer out of the back of the arithmetic.
What is interesting, instructive even, in this list is Van Dine's absolute certainty that the point of a novel is to act as a puzzle, and the goal of the reader is to discover the one and only "right" answer. "The detective story," he writes, "is a kind of intellectual game. It is more — it is a sporting event."

There's no wrong way to approach a text, and those who see a detective novel as a sort of one-person parlor game will get no reprimand from me. But this is not how I like to read an Agatha Christie novel or a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle story, and my guess is that it is people like me and not Van Dine who are in the majority. My blessing to those who read them as a puzzle, but if I choose instead to use it as a source text for a fanfic in which Tommy and Tuppence have an orgy with Irene Adler, Vera Claythorn, and Neville Chamberlain, then that's fine too.

In Raymond Chandler's 1939 novel The Big Sleep, after all, the chauffeur is killed, and no one--including Chandler himself--knows who did it. That ambiguity was preserved in the 1946 film version written by no less greats than William Faulkner, Leigh Brackett, and Jules Furthman, and starring Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. Does anyone really care? Both the book and the movie are classics, and rightfully so. (Well, I haven't actually read the book.) (ETA: [livejournal.com profile] karabair gives a few more details here.) The Da Vinci Code is an international bestselling phenomenon, and there's no way that a reader could keep up with the hero, who uses obscure and almost-true history to concoct an implausible chain of reasoning. And I'm excited to see Tom Hanks, Audrey Tautou, and Ian McKellan acting it out--although with a cast like that, how could I not?

And this brings me to Veronica Mars. Despite it being so often mentioned in the same breath as Buffy, I haven't seen it--or hadn't, until about three weeks ago, when I saw the beginning of an episode. I have to admit that I wasn't thrilled by what I saw; it seemed very soap opera-ish and I already knew there wouldn't be any vampires or witches, so what's the point? But then I watched the end of an episode two weeks ago, and it was all about her solving a mystery, and I was beginning to feel the love. And then it dawned to me: a detective is a sort of ubermensch, using hir intellect to take control of the world. And as such, a detective novel is as much an expression of the will-to-power or adolescent fantasy as a show about a teenage girl chosen to slay the vampires, isn't it? (I've done a JSTOR search and it seems this has been undertheorized, at least in article form, which really surprises me.) So if I do get into VM, I suppose it'll fit perfectly into my supergenius-teenaged-girl-who-takes-over-the-world kink.

I hope to do some longer and more sustained meta later, particularly a craft-of-writing on how we structure fic and how only a subset of fics are strictly speaking "stories," but as my life is going at the moment that "later" promises to be very long from now.

Okay, back to watching the Lindsay Lohan Parent Trap on ABC Family. I really love this film, but a Londoner likes to eat her Oreos with peanut butter? WTF?

Where is the Annie/Hallie twincest?

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:13 am (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Keith/Veronica)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
So if I do get into VM, I suppose it'll fit perfectly into my teenaged-girl-who-takes-over-the-world kink.

Yes. It really will.

Also, there's incest.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, we'll see what happens.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-10-01 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Yes! Squee.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-11-12 06:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
You think?

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] executrix.livejournal.com
My favorite detective story is Anthony Berkeley's "The Poisoned Chocolates Case" precisely because it attacks the whole convention of "one and only solution."


PS--Annie/Hallie twincest: presumably while wearing vests and big hats and ties. And killing spiders the size of Buicks.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
My favorite detective story is Anthony Berkeley's "The Poisoned Chocolates Case" precisely because it attacks the whole convention of "one and only solution."

That sounds fascinating. The only thing my school library has by that author is an Alfred Hitchcock movie, but I've ordered it.

Annie/Hallie twincest: presumably while wearing vests and big hats and ties. And killing spiders the size of Buicks.

Erm, huh?

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 03:16 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] executrix.livejournal.com
I keep forgetting how young you guys are. Annie Hall--actual good movie by Woody Allen, Diane Keaton as title character in totally un-macho male garments.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-10-01 06:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Just saw it a couple weeks ago. Liked!

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:18 am (UTC)
wisdomeagle: (Matilda)
From: [personal profile] wisdomeagle
Where is the Annie/Hallie twincest?

That is such a good question! I'll write you Annie/Hallie if you write me Jenny/Matilda! *g* (Or maybe even not, since I do have the canon right here.)

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I was home this weekend and I totally forgot to pick up Matilda! *facepalm*

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-23 12:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Wait, let's do the math. Annie and Hallie would be 19 right now, and movieverse!Matilda would be . . . 16? Ish?

Anyway, if you give me the ending voiceover, I think I can begin working on the Jenny/Matilda. I don't know when I'll finish it, as my schedule is pretty full of both 'thons and academic commitments, but I can start working on it.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-10-01 06:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I will write that Jenny/Matilda, eventually.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soundingsea.livejournal.com
Hah. So, I was reading your whole post, and thinking about how it applied to Veronica Mars, and then that's were you were going. Super!

I'd respectfully suggest, if you decide to watch more Veronica Mars, that you start from the beginning. It's got a heavy story arc and makes much better sense if watched in order.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:41 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Well, my options are basically either watching it on TV now or not watching it at all, so we'll see what happens.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 03:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soundingsea.livejournal.com
Ah, you can't watch AVIs, I take it? 'Cause if you could, well...

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 03:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I think I can.

*goes to check*

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 03:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] soundingsea.livejournal.com
If you've got VLC (http://www.videolan.org/vlc), you don't need to worry about codecs...

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Interesting thoughts on the detective story -- I do think that Van Dine's rules are not accepted by the majority of today's readers. They probaly weren't even that widely applicable at the time. What they do, though, is give a framework which to some extent is what makes genre genre.

Mostly, though, I have to bust the Chandler myth. It's fairly clear, in the book, who killed the chauffeur. It becomes confusing, later on, b/c Marlowe lies about it in order to protect his client. Also, TBS, like most of Chandler's work, is "cannibalized" from several older, shorter stories. So the plot has a series of stops and starts; but structurally it actually comes together very well, once you figure out the structure. The film works less well because the censors wouldn't let them use the original solution to the mystery for lots of reasons. And also because most of the exposition got cut in favor of Lauren Bacall in elaborate gowns. Not that I'm complaining, mind.

It's POSSIBLE that Chandler might not have known who killed the chauffeur but more likely (if that story ever actually happened) that he didn't particularly feel like refreshing his memory on something he'd written a decade before that he wasn't getting paid for.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:45 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
That's what I assumed about the Van Dine list--they strike me as a perfect illustration of the extreme case of a certain mindset.

Well, oh well about the Chandler myth. Some stories are so perfect that if they didn't happen, we have to event them. I'll ETA a link to your comment.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 02:51 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] likeadeuce.livejournal.com
Oh yes, it's a very common myth, and it doesn't really affect your point that it's untrue (I'm generally of the 'whodunit doesn't matter that much' school). It's just one of those urban legends I'm reflexively required to bitch about, as somebody who prefers the book to the movie.

also see here.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 04:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] r-becca.livejournal.com
It's interesting to look at Harry Potter in the context of Van Dine's list... especially in terms of GoF, which is much more a mystery than many of the other books, and the reader is actively trying to solve the mystery... and the solution just comes out of left field. The reader has absolutely no chance to solve the mystery... it's sort of a combination of one of the official investigators being the culprit (violation of #4 above), and an unmotivated confession (violation of #5). :P But it works. It's not really a detective story, but it is a good mystery anyway. :)

I do think that JKR is writing plot-driven books, and fandom is all about characters... so we have a natural disconnect with her there that doesn't come up in a much more character-driven series like BtVS.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I haven't read Goblet of Fire, so I can't speak about that, but in the movie the mystery was so not the point that I don't think very many would feel bothered by the way the denouement played out. Also, Rowling always has the deck stacked against the reader, as [livejournal.com profile] musesfool puts it below, because she and her characters know things about her world, and in particular the way magic within it operates, that the reader does not.

Which is not to say that there are not situations in which a reader/audience will feel cheated; a rejection of Van Dine's list is not license to insert dei ex machina through out one's fiction willy-nilly.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 05:06 am (UTC)
ext_1310: (vmars)
From: [identity profile] musesfool.livejournal.com
Hmm... I figured out the central mystery of The Da Vinci Code fairly early on, and thought it wasn't particularly well done.

I think a mediocre detective novel can be enjoyed as a puzzle and nothing more - once the puzzle is solved, the book itself becomes obsolete and uninteresting. A good detective novel, otoh, is a good story, and can therefore be reread and new things will make themselves known upon the rereading, not just the clues one may have missed before, but subtle character interactions that may or may not be clues, but which lend the story depth and texture. And also, I find with detective series - like Nero Wolfe or Amelia Peabody - after a while, the mysteries become secondary to loving the characters and wanting to visit with them.

I do think Rowling sees herself as writing a mystery - hence her quoting of Dorothy Sayers in interviews - and so she sees as less important things that make a fandom excited. Of course, Rowling also stacks the deck against the reader figuring things out because of the way the story is serialized. And also the way she pokes fandom and watches it jump.

I don't think I have anything useful to add, so I'll just shut up now.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 12:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Oh, I make no claim that The Da Vinci Code is great literature, just the opposite. It has no themes or significance to make me care about the book once I've put it down, so ultimately it's nothing more than an entertaining diversion--and I expect more than that from fanfic. His prose style is clunky, and as a mystery it is constructed with minimal competence. And for me, my biggest problem is that I read Angels & Demons first, and once a man takes on the Illuminati everything else becomes old hat.

My point is that despite these things, the American public has fallen in love with the book. Sure there are better-written mysteries more deserving of the public's praise, but The Da Vinci Code does have what a mystery needs to have--that connection to the adolescent fantasy in the Mary Sueism of its detective. (We could say similar things about Harry Potter.)

As someone who has only read SS/PS and watched the movies, I won't talk about Rowling's techniques as a writer, but I do think that talking about mysteries helps us to remember the different ways that different people approach texts, and to better make sense of what is happening in that and other fandoms.

Thanks for your thoughts!

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 09:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkdormouse.livejournal.com
4. The detective himself, or one of the official investigators, should never turn out to be the culprit. This is bald trickery, on a par with offering some one a bright penny for a five-dollar gold piece. It's false pretenses.

I'm definitely going to disagree with that one. There are a lot of interesting twists around the idea that one of the investigating officers, or even the hero in a really clever story, is actually the guilty party. Val McDermid did a particularly good job of the former -- once the hero realises that the only other person definitely in the area at the time of the first death was the local Bobby he then has to find the one bit of evidence that will prove his theory before it's too late. Of course the reader gets to suspect earlier because the bad cop offers to lie about where he was for a later death, supposedly to protect a fellow officer with motive but no alibi for that particular crime.

As for me, I break the rules all the time. I don't think it matters that a death was technically suicide or an accident if the investigation uncovers facts that would otherwise have remained unknown. I'm going to be very interested to see who works out what amongst my test readers too.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 12:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
Oh, I pretty much disagree with the entire list. I agree with in spirit only so far as an author shouldn't be pulling cheap dei ex machina out of nowhere, that leave the reader feeling cheated. But a skilled writer can get away with a lot, as some of the above commentators say re: Rowling. (I won't speak on the subject myself, not having read the books.)

I think it comes down to that if your intent as a writer is to create a work of literature within the detective genre, that you will write it however you need to bring together your themes and motifs in a way which is satisfying. It is only if you see detective fiction as something completely separate from the goals and objectives of literature, an intellectual exercise as Van Dine seems to, that that list makes any sense at all.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinkdormouse.livejournal.com
I did a fanfic novel some years back, that was a combination of an AU of an entire series and a mystery story (more or less one chapter per episode). The basic premise was 'what if two characters canonically on opposing sides team up to work for themselves, but most other stuff happens as before?'. Now I thought I'd dropped enough hints about who was on the new Big Bad's team, but at least one reviewer thought the ending came from nowhere. So now I'm very careful about giving out enough clues and red herrings that missing one or two the first time isn't such a big deal (something I think JKR falls down on at times). Yes, there's one thing in A Fine Moon To Die Under that I want to be as big a bombshell for the reader as for our heroes, but the clues *are* there, even if the hero doesn't want to examine them too closely.

Then again there are definitely times when JKR uses characters as plot devices rather than letting characters drive the story, which is definitely opposite to what I do, even if I am into the whole idea of combining mystery with world building.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 04:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hermionesviolin.livejournal.com
I weep that Ian McKellan is involved in The DaVinci Code. (And it makes my purist heart sad that you have only seen the HP movies rather than reading the books, but since my personal rule is I'll watch movies of stories I'm not willing to commit the time&energy to a book of, I definitely validate your choice.)

I can definitely understand where Van Dine is coming from, though I certainly have no problem with an interest in detective novels for the characters :) Interestingly, I don't think of the HP novels as mysteries at all. I mean, Book1 and in some ways GoF very much have that bent to them, but I think of them far more as plot&character-driven in a broader sense.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 06:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I weep that Ian McKellan is involved in The DaVinci Code.

Really? I figure that anything featuring Hanks, Tautou, and McKellan all in the same movie has to be good, no matter how bad the script. Indeed, it's probably a law of nature that the script has to be bad, because no movie can be that perfect.

And it makes my purist heart sad that you have only seen the HP movies rather than reading the books, but since my personal rule is I'll watch movies of stories I'm not willing to commit the time&energy to a book of, I definitely validate your choice.

I'm not a purist when it comes to adaptations; I recognize that the difference in media between book and movie will at times create drastic differences, and I want the story told in the best way whatever form with which I'm coming in contact can give me.

When I read Book 1, it actually reminded me a lot of the DaVinci Code (or was it vice versa): both books are mildly amusing, they're not bad, but neither are they the best of their genre.

I think the conflict isn't so much between JKR writing the books as mysteries and in some other way (say, character-driven) as in our reading them that way. When we play "How Many Children Had Lady Macbeth?"--which of course is the game upon which fandom is founded in a certain sense--there's a sense in which we're setting ourselves up as positivistic detectives, looking for some clear meaning in a text seeped in ambiguity. And when we do, we often miss the purloined letter which is hidden in clear sight.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-22 06:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hermionesviolin.livejournal.com
I love Ian McKellan and have lots of negative feelings towards the book*, so it makes me sad that he's involved in the film.

*I'm contrary and thus tend not to read the books that are the flavor of the moment, so I must admit I haven't actually read the book. I've heard both good and bad things about it as a work of fiction, but I've heard really awful things about its claims to truth and am additionally rageful that so many people treated this work of fiction as if all its historical claims were true.

Because books and movies are such different media, it bothers me that the movie industry jumps all over adapting books rather than focusing on storie which are written to be told via the film format. I also tend to think that the book version of something that was originally a book is likely to be the superior version since that's how the story was originally intended, so I get upset that so many times people only encounter a film version and not only does that become the definitive version for them but they often don't even know a book version exists.

I originally refused to read HP fanfic because I just wasn't that interested in having more involvement with the source text than just canon, but I've gotten sucked into it and some of it is really amazing, and I've come to feel that there's a lot of potential in the world and characters JKR has created but the source text itself often doesn't live up to that potential.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-24 02:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
My understanding is that much of the book is based on discredited (although I always have to wonder, discredited by whom?) scholarship, so I see it as a fascinating what if--an AU of history, as it were. The ideas contained within are mostly ones which have at some time in the past floated around, so mostly I find myself wondering what the big deal is. It's as if someone wrote a book about Washington and his cherry tree.

My feeling about HP is similar to yours, which is why I don't read the canon but will watch the movies and on occasion read the fanfic--because I've seen the potential in action and sometimes it is spellbinding.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-24 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hermionesviolin.livejournal.com
Yeah, the book mostly made me wanna find out his sources so that I could then research *their* accuracy. And part of the reason I wasn't terribly drawn to the book is that some of the ideas it plays with I'm just not that interested in.

The MFA panel I went to covered a lot of the inaccuracies in the novel.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-11-12 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
It's fiction--to me that's the sticking point. Talking about a novel's "claims to truth" just strikes me as weird. (OTOH, when I saw the movie, I felt like some of that distance was lost, for whatever reason--possibly because movies traditionally are more likely to stop and explain to their audience some point of science or history, and novels tend to handle exposition more gracefully?)

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-24 02:33 am (UTC)
ext_6866: (Two ways of looking at a magpie)
From: [identity profile] sistermagpie.livejournal.com
Finally came over to read this and I'm glad I did! Those rules are interesting, not because everybody should follow them, obviously, but they do lay out a good extreme to compare things against. As you said in a comment above, in GoF the mystery is so besides the point and that's absolutely true--you really can't solve it on your own. I don't think that's what Rowling is about anyway. Her "mysteries" aren't about figuring out who dunnit at all. It's more that you read the book one way, then something is revealed which casts everything before it in a different light.

But that probably plays into the comment you quoted, because people a) get used to thinking there's a "solution" to a character and a character's actions, so they get attached to certain readings, always claiming that no one is what they appear and b) get used to certain readings being rejected in the text--no, this character was not a good guy, but a bad guy; he was not helping Harry but setting him up, etc.

(no subject)

Date: 2006-02-24 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alixtii.livejournal.com
I'm glad that you found my post interesting. I think HP and mysteries do have something in common that many texts don't--mysteries, when approached in the way that Van Dine encourages, encourage you to guess whodunit, and the way that HP is serialized, with massive infusions of canon spaced apart by several years somehow has the same effect.

I wrote some

Date: 2007-05-15 06:21 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dartxni.livejournal.com
Matilda/Jenny WIP
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2153244/1/

and Anne/Hallie short
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2953182/1/

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